another banger! I'm straight (for the most part, or maybe for now? who knows!) but have relationship & sex ocd and I'm literally always thinking about these ideas (for better or for worse 🙃). really appreciated what you said about the complicated notion of sexuality being "unchanging" as this is something that often PLAGUES me to no end and I loved that bit on the inherent impossibility of knowing one's true self and true desires. I guess there is a certain beauty in that ignorance and it doesn't have to be this moralistic journey. thanks for this! your writing is always a breath of fresh air. <3
thank you Loré, always a joy to be read by you ❤️ and yes! the idea that we can COMPLETELY and fully know ourselves and our desires is an impossible project…it's calming to realize we can discover new aspects of our identity, and that we can be curious/excited about it instead of nervous/fearful
I love philosophy so much so I adored this whole piece - exceptionally well done Celine! Very astute thoughts about sexuality and desire. I have been thinking a lot recently about epistemological transformations (I got diagnosed with a chronic illness a few years ago and it has radically transformed my life in a way I couldn’t access if I didn’t get sick!) it’s really interesting. Ps those perfume bottles are to die for. X
Martha! Thank you so much—and I definitely think that chronic illness is a particularly transformative experience too (and ties into phenomenological concerns). It's also one that people are afraid to encounter or bear witness to, even though many people may be quietly dealing with chronic illness, and many more will experience it as they age…
There are 2 potentially relevant examples in L.A. Paul's book: she talks about parents deciding whether their deaf child should receive a cochlear implant (which may improve integration into non-D/deaf society, but also prevent them from experiencing the particular cultural heritage of D/deafness)…and someone deciding whether to undergo a risky surgical intervention that could improve their quality of life OR drastically shorten it.
Your comment is also reminding me that I have a number of books on chronic illness I've been meaning to read (like Alice Hattrick's Ill Feelings, published in the UK by Fitzcarraldo https://fitzcarraldoeditions.com/books/ill-feelings)…maybe time to dig those up again?
Yes to the phenomenological concerns - it is definitely deeply feared/fear mongered when it is so so common (and quietly so) just like you said.
Thank you for pointing out the relevant examples in Paul’s book - two that definitely are relevant and I’m going to look into reading them more. It’s hard not to have extensive epistemological transformation when it comes to health and body autonomy.
I’ve got Ill Feelings by Hattrick on my TBR! So funny you mentioned it - I just finished ‘Intervals’ by Marianne Booker (also a Fitzcarraldo - I live in the UK) which is about MS & assisted dying / lack of control in chronic illness. I really enjoyed it (I’ll review in my March Reads in my newsletter sorry shameless) and if you’re looking for more books on chronic illness I’d suggest taking a look! Lmk of any other chronic illness books you’re looking at incase there’s any i don’t know!! The other I’ve seen is ‘The Sound of the Wild Snail Eating’ that I’m interested in reading.
I've also been interested in Booker's Intervals (I had a Fitzcarraldo subscription when I lived in London and would read basically all their new releases…miss London, miss having my monthly delivery of books 💔)
really, really looking forward to reading your thoughts!!
Another absolute banger. Your perspectives always hit at something I've been deeply irritable about, but am too scared to express (love for sf, value of experience over labels). Thank you for always carrying the convo forward in such a meaningful way <3
As always, an interesting read C. I enjoy stories about people taking a leap and you are able to share your authentic experience while also holding it up to the light. I have that issue of The Atlantic and haven’t opened it yet— flipping straight to your piece when I do. Kudos! And jinx: I also wrote about Paul’s book on my Stack yesterday, though salad dressing (not transformative)is as personal as I delved.
thank you for reading! also, my Atlantic article is just online but SOMEDAY…I would love to write something for the print magazine!!
also, I just read your post on books about transformation—loved this observation: "True transformation often requires us to give up the possibility of one role in favor of another. And when we can’t know what this will be like, or even if we’ll be successful in taking on a new role until we’ve committed to it, the decisions can be fraught. One path through the fear of the unknown suggested by this month’s books is to embrace the creative potential in the roles you choose." https://thebooktender.substack.com/p/3-tips-for-thriving-through-transformation
Funny (and irritating to me that I may just be a cliche, 'garden-variety') how close this is to my experience: "To me, it felt like I had been straight for most of my life, and then one night I took an empathogen at a party, and I realized that the friend I was with was extremely hot." This, too!! "Like revealing that their ostensibly liberal parents are totally OK with gay people if the gays are somewhere else, not in your family."
That "Am I a lesbian?" doc honestly gave me a lot of grief in COVID, particularly the totalising concept of comphet. Yes, there are so many oppressive aspects to not realising you're queer and not having language for it, but there is also genuine epistemological ignorance of our experience, desires, and others' experience. And while ignorance and oppression work together I don't think its fair to lump genuine ignorance into the cosmic forces of patriarchal oppression because at that point we destroy any hope of learning about eachother.
Also it just feels literally impossible to negate a lot of the subjective experiences in that doc. Some amount of discomfort, doubt, selfishness, even aversion is occasional in a healthy relationship, IMO these are issues that arise from negotiating togetherness vs individuality.
I've always thought as bisexuality as an epistemological notion but never put it in words like this before. My simplest explanation to other people usually is, "Well if you date 99 men and then the 100th is a woman, who you stay with for the rest of your life, then what are you?". And the point of this question is not to answer or solve it with A) straight B) lesbian C) bisexual D) something else, but more to point at the invalidity of the question in general. When you ask this question you are also forced to ask, well OK, what's the point/function of saying you're A, B, C, etcetera? From there it comes down to legibility, and what you want other people to know (or more accurately believe) about you.
There was a time when telling people I was queer was about making my suffering of the queer flavour legible, because I didn't feel safe or secure in this part of my identity, and I wanted subconsciously to test for signals that someone was sensitive to this. These days (because I date a man) I'm mostly queer to myself, or as a matter of fact in plain acknowledgement of the wholeness and mystery of my experience, but I'm way less bothered about being valid as bisexual or not. If people don't accept or understand this, then whatever, fair enough, I choose the discomfort of being not wholly understood over the discomfort of having to explain myself.
I always come back to Gertrude Stein's, "No [I'm not a lesbian], I just like Alice." Because I've also felt about my bf the same way I've felt about the first woman I liked: I found most other men pretty off putting or uninteresting, then I met him, but that feels more like a departure from liking other men on first blush and being childishly put off by the time we get to know each other as human beings, and being ready to love.
Hello from a Việt fellow. Your writing comes at a convenient time for me. The piece materializes most of my thoughts and wonderings about queerness and how to act sanely as a queer person in the modern world.
Indeed we develop by transformative experiences - this is the conclusion from my fairly long life - and actually it goes much further: We learn anything by observing, experiencing, trying out something new - and be it to smile at our parents as infants. So with the abilities we humans have and how learning from culture (the collection of past learning) shaped us we may indeed "observe" many things by reading them - after all our life is too cotrolled to observe much new (though we could try to change that) - but however we observe, it is only by directly experiencing, thence understanding and trying it out (which deepens the understanding further) that we learn - therein transforming ourselves.
I think about this idea of transformative experience a lot, not as it relates to sexuality (though I do think about that too!), but in the way that people seem to be playacting transformative experience, without the actual transformation. I see it a lot in the way that many of my friends/peers travel -- looking for transformative experience, but replicating their conditions of home as best as they can while abroad (luxury, comfort, similar experiences, not meeting people unlike themselves). I've absolutely done the same thing and have realized, over time, that if I'm looking to change or evolve in some way in my life, I'm better off doing it at home and making those changes where I primarily exist.
another banger! I'm straight (for the most part, or maybe for now? who knows!) but have relationship & sex ocd and I'm literally always thinking about these ideas (for better or for worse 🙃). really appreciated what you said about the complicated notion of sexuality being "unchanging" as this is something that often PLAGUES me to no end and I loved that bit on the inherent impossibility of knowing one's true self and true desires. I guess there is a certain beauty in that ignorance and it doesn't have to be this moralistic journey. thanks for this! your writing is always a breath of fresh air. <3
thank you Loré, always a joy to be read by you ❤️ and yes! the idea that we can COMPLETELY and fully know ourselves and our desires is an impossible project…it's calming to realize we can discover new aspects of our identity, and that we can be curious/excited about it instead of nervous/fearful
I love philosophy so much so I adored this whole piece - exceptionally well done Celine! Very astute thoughts about sexuality and desire. I have been thinking a lot recently about epistemological transformations (I got diagnosed with a chronic illness a few years ago and it has radically transformed my life in a way I couldn’t access if I didn’t get sick!) it’s really interesting. Ps those perfume bottles are to die for. X
Martha! Thank you so much—and I definitely think that chronic illness is a particularly transformative experience too (and ties into phenomenological concerns). It's also one that people are afraid to encounter or bear witness to, even though many people may be quietly dealing with chronic illness, and many more will experience it as they age…
There are 2 potentially relevant examples in L.A. Paul's book: she talks about parents deciding whether their deaf child should receive a cochlear implant (which may improve integration into non-D/deaf society, but also prevent them from experiencing the particular cultural heritage of D/deafness)…and someone deciding whether to undergo a risky surgical intervention that could improve their quality of life OR drastically shorten it.
Your comment is also reminding me that I have a number of books on chronic illness I've been meaning to read (like Alice Hattrick's Ill Feelings, published in the UK by Fitzcarraldo https://fitzcarraldoeditions.com/books/ill-feelings)…maybe time to dig those up again?
Yes to the phenomenological concerns - it is definitely deeply feared/fear mongered when it is so so common (and quietly so) just like you said.
Thank you for pointing out the relevant examples in Paul’s book - two that definitely are relevant and I’m going to look into reading them more. It’s hard not to have extensive epistemological transformation when it comes to health and body autonomy.
I’ve got Ill Feelings by Hattrick on my TBR! So funny you mentioned it - I just finished ‘Intervals’ by Marianne Booker (also a Fitzcarraldo - I live in the UK) which is about MS & assisted dying / lack of control in chronic illness. I really enjoyed it (I’ll review in my March Reads in my newsletter sorry shameless) and if you’re looking for more books on chronic illness I’d suggest taking a look! Lmk of any other chronic illness books you’re looking at incase there’s any i don’t know!! The other I’ve seen is ‘The Sound of the Wild Snail Eating’ that I’m interested in reading.
I've also been interested in Booker's Intervals (I had a Fitzcarraldo subscription when I lived in London and would read basically all their new releases…miss London, miss having my monthly delivery of books 💔)
really, really looking forward to reading your thoughts!!
This piece just gave me so much I didn’t know I needed! Thank you (signed, a philosophy minor)
thank you so much for reading! I'm hoping to write more about philosophy here…the original self-help genre and so useful for understanding ourselves!
Another absolute banger. Your perspectives always hit at something I've been deeply irritable about, but am too scared to express (love for sf, value of experience over labels). Thank you for always carrying the convo forward in such a meaningful way <3
thank you as always for reading ❤️ I really strive to write a sincere and thoughtfully substantiated Take…
celine! you never cease to astound! love the clarity of thought here and honesty among what is a thorny and confusing experience ❤️
As always, an interesting read C. I enjoy stories about people taking a leap and you are able to share your authentic experience while also holding it up to the light. I have that issue of The Atlantic and haven’t opened it yet— flipping straight to your piece when I do. Kudos! And jinx: I also wrote about Paul’s book on my Stack yesterday, though salad dressing (not transformative)is as personal as I delved.
thank you for reading! also, my Atlantic article is just online but SOMEDAY…I would love to write something for the print magazine!!
also, I just read your post on books about transformation—loved this observation: "True transformation often requires us to give up the possibility of one role in favor of another. And when we can’t know what this will be like, or even if we’ll be successful in taking on a new role until we’ve committed to it, the decisions can be fraught. One path through the fear of the unknown suggested by this month’s books is to embrace the creative potential in the roles you choose." https://thebooktender.substack.com/p/3-tips-for-thriving-through-transformation
Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts!
Funny (and irritating to me that I may just be a cliche, 'garden-variety') how close this is to my experience: "To me, it felt like I had been straight for most of my life, and then one night I took an empathogen at a party, and I realized that the friend I was with was extremely hot." This, too!! "Like revealing that their ostensibly liberal parents are totally OK with gay people if the gays are somewhere else, not in your family."
That "Am I a lesbian?" doc honestly gave me a lot of grief in COVID, particularly the totalising concept of comphet. Yes, there are so many oppressive aspects to not realising you're queer and not having language for it, but there is also genuine epistemological ignorance of our experience, desires, and others' experience. And while ignorance and oppression work together I don't think its fair to lump genuine ignorance into the cosmic forces of patriarchal oppression because at that point we destroy any hope of learning about eachother.
Also it just feels literally impossible to negate a lot of the subjective experiences in that doc. Some amount of discomfort, doubt, selfishness, even aversion is occasional in a healthy relationship, IMO these are issues that arise from negotiating togetherness vs individuality.
I've always thought as bisexuality as an epistemological notion but never put it in words like this before. My simplest explanation to other people usually is, "Well if you date 99 men and then the 100th is a woman, who you stay with for the rest of your life, then what are you?". And the point of this question is not to answer or solve it with A) straight B) lesbian C) bisexual D) something else, but more to point at the invalidity of the question in general. When you ask this question you are also forced to ask, well OK, what's the point/function of saying you're A, B, C, etcetera? From there it comes down to legibility, and what you want other people to know (or more accurately believe) about you.
There was a time when telling people I was queer was about making my suffering of the queer flavour legible, because I didn't feel safe or secure in this part of my identity, and I wanted subconsciously to test for signals that someone was sensitive to this. These days (because I date a man) I'm mostly queer to myself, or as a matter of fact in plain acknowledgement of the wholeness and mystery of my experience, but I'm way less bothered about being valid as bisexual or not. If people don't accept or understand this, then whatever, fair enough, I choose the discomfort of being not wholly understood over the discomfort of having to explain myself.
I always come back to Gertrude Stein's, "No [I'm not a lesbian], I just like Alice." Because I've also felt about my bf the same way I've felt about the first woman I liked: I found most other men pretty off putting or uninteresting, then I met him, but that feels more like a departure from liking other men on first blush and being childishly put off by the time we get to know each other as human beings, and being ready to love.
Hello from a Việt fellow. Your writing comes at a convenient time for me. The piece materializes most of my thoughts and wonderings about queerness and how to act sanely as a queer person in the modern world.
Indeed we develop by transformative experiences - this is the conclusion from my fairly long life - and actually it goes much further: We learn anything by observing, experiencing, trying out something new - and be it to smile at our parents as infants. So with the abilities we humans have and how learning from culture (the collection of past learning) shaped us we may indeed "observe" many things by reading them - after all our life is too cotrolled to observe much new (though we could try to change that) - but however we observe, it is only by directly experiencing, thence understanding and trying it out (which deepens the understanding further) that we learn - therein transforming ourselves.
I think about this idea of transformative experience a lot, not as it relates to sexuality (though I do think about that too!), but in the way that people seem to be playacting transformative experience, without the actual transformation. I see it a lot in the way that many of my friends/peers travel -- looking for transformative experience, but replicating their conditions of home as best as they can while abroad (luxury, comfort, similar experiences, not meeting people unlike themselves). I've absolutely done the same thing and have realized, over time, that if I'm looking to change or evolve in some way in my life, I'm better off doing it at home and making those changes where I primarily exist.
A fascinating read, thank you so much for sharing. I feel like I need to reread it a few mores times to really soak it all in. ❤️